I thought rather than me pontificating on what I think all that means, it would be nice to just have a discussion with you, and you tell me what you think it means. If anything. :-)
So here are the topics we discussed.
1 - Love at First Sight
I actually believe in love at first sight. As a matter of fact, I have personal experience with love at first sight. So this is something I believe in both in fiction and in reality.
What about you?
2 - Gay for You (or the alternative version: Straight for You)
I don't believe in this in reality. But I also have no problem admitting I haven't experienced or witnessed everything in the world--and that I understand that people are complicated and wildly diverse critters.
I do understand the romantic appeal of these GFY or SFY stories.
What about you?
3 - Love Conquers All
Yeah. Not so much. I wish it was true, but no. However, I do completely love the idea in romance fiction--especially when the characters are shown as working hard to fix the problems that exist between them. Because that I do believe: love takes work and commitment. And hard work and commitment can solve an awful lot of problems.
What do you think?
4 - Opposites Attract
This is true. I have seen this and I have experienced this. Attraction does not always lead to Happily Ever After, however, but I have seen Opposites living HEA. Or as close as we get to HEA in real life.
You?
5 - Reunited and it Feels So Good
Again, yes. I have seen couples break-up and even years later get back together and live HEA (or, again, as close as we get to HEA in real life). I have not experienced this personally, however. I really don't have regrets about past relationships. I mean, yes, I have regrets, but not about the relationship being over and having moved on.
What do you think? Feel free to expound. I love it when we have these in-depth discussions!
Love at first sight is real. It's the fortieth and fiftieth sight that takes work.
ReplyDeleteI do believe in love conquering all--or maybe most--because forgiveness and understanding are a huge part of what makes real, lasting, adult relationships work.
"I do believe in love conquering all--or maybe most--because forgiveness and understanding are a huge part of what makes real, lasting, adult relationships work."
DeleteGood point! Because without love, we rarely bother to put in the necessary work. So true.
Love that, Lb. I've been with Brad over 10 years and the sight of him still brings a smile to my face. Heck, the thought of him warms me.
Delete:-)
DeleteI love your thinky-thoughts. I think when we read fiction, especially romance we (meaning me at least!) suspend reality. So much of reading romance is the wishful thinking of what we'd like to see or want to be true. So, yes, all of the above work in some shape or form. Love at first sight is real, GFY, what do I know, and all the rest you mention are totally within the realm of reality. At least in my mind :)
ReplyDeleteYes! Exactly. If you know humans, you know pretty much anything is possible. :-) And usually more to the good than the bad.
DeleteGreat post. I don't get your argument for #3 - Love Conquers All - because what you say seems to be the very definition of love conquering all: hard work and commitment. Love and trust.
ReplyDeleteI love #5 because I've seen in it action. My sister and her fiancé: 25 years after they broke up they're back together. Five years and counting.
I'm thinking more of that youthful, immature idea of love--the conflation of love and romance--because romance is more like the stunning outfit you wear and love is the body and soul beneath.
DeleteTrue. Thinking back on what I wrote it's kind of funny, because had my sister & her boyfriend been more mature and had a 'love conquers all' mindset, they'd have endeavored to work through what turned out to be a pretty petty reason to break up. But then - maybe love DOES really conquer all because here they are together again after all this time.
DeleteYes! I think that's true. In relationships some of it does come down to timing.
DeleteAnd the idea of love as this effortless, soul-binding thing...that's confusing to people who haven't had much relationship experience. That's a romantic idea of love. Romance is effortless, for sure! ;-)
- Yes I believe in Love at First Sight, because I have had that. Sorry to say, it lasted not a lifetime. :-)
ReplyDelete- Gay for You or vice versa, that's more complicated. I am born1961 and we were an openminded and adventurous bunch of people. I think of me as straight, but have had in my youth a crush for a very effiminate men. I am astonished about that until now, but we are very best friends with the same sense of humor. There were a spark once in a while for both of us. The GFY stories I have read have not convinced me.
- Love Conquers All. I hope that's true, but love can be destroyed through severe incidences. People are changing, it's the question then, if we love this new version too.
- Opposites Attract. Yes I think that happens all the time, but then you have to work hard, that you have a HEA.
- Reunited and it Feels So Good. No I don't think so. When a love ended, it has reasons.
That were very interesting questions. I am curious what I will read here.
Yes, this is why I become impatient with labels because people are so complex and there are so many nuances to our relationships with others--and we change so much through the course of our lifetime. Not every relationship can last through those changes. And maybe they are not meant to.
DeleteSo really it is a case by case thing, I think. And that is actually part of what makes love so special, so important in our lives. Because it is fluid and fragile while also potentially steadfast and rock solid.
It was only one man. :-)
ReplyDelete:-D
DeleteLove at first sight is an interesting one. Love? I think there are different kinds of love. We need more words for them all. I do believe in very intense quick connections that can develop into something deeper that feels, with hindsight, that it was that deep from the start, but a flame like that needs fanning to turn it into the deeper thing. If it's doused very early, I find it difficult to believe it would leave a lifelong pain/ ruin a person for all others.
ReplyDeleteThis is very true. That immediate connection can be powerful, but it doesn't always last. When it does, it takes on a "meant to be" quality.
DeleteBut even when it isn't meant to be there are some fleeting connections that you don't forget--which is also so interesting. A conversation with someone on a plane can change your life--even if you never see that person again.
Usually there are two different expressions for love in Spanish: the "enamoramiento/estar enamorado", is when you *fall in love* or are *in love*. It's the chemical stuff in your blood that makes you blush, and bashful, and horny, and stupid. This can happen the first time you lay eyes on someone, or it can happen the first time they say something that makes click. It can also take some time to build up, but it's always a heady rush you cannot stop. It's what allows two very different person to build the foundation of what should later become a stable relationship.
DeleteLater, when the rush is gone, you usually speak of "querer / quiero a mi marido", it's the same word you use to indicate you love your family. It's a more sedate, deeper, more mature kind of love. And it's understood to be different than the "enamoramiento".
You can reach the "querer" phase without the "enamoramiento" phase, which is what can happen with good friends, or, sometimes, with an arranged marriage. And, of course, an "enamoramiento" can last a lifetime, but let's be honest, who would want that? It's exhausting.
Yes! And I love your explanation--those linguistic nuances are very revealing.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe world is so full of cruel and hate and violence, so when I read a book I want that love conquers all, hea, second, third, forty eighth chance, different personalities struggling but finding love. :-)
ReplyDeleteAs for the at first sight, no, as an asexual, that just sounds shallow to me, and as for turning....you am what you am.
I WANT MY HEA!!!!
Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with wanting a HEA because I think we all--barring the very young and unsophisticated--understand that HEA does not mean nothing ever goes wrong again. :-D
DeleteI mean, we're all going to die eventually, so right there... :-D
As long as you don't die at the end of the book I am reading. That would really ruin my day.
Delete:-D
DeleteOooo, fun topic!
ReplyDeleteLove at first sight: absolutely. My first relationship was love at first sight. Of course it isn't the kind of deep love that comes with truly knowing and caring about a person, but the--literally--instant connection and the overwhelming I-really-need-to-know-you-this-is-almost-like-deja-vu-yet-I-know-I've-never-actually-met-you feeling, yes. It felt really strange, really awesome, and also a little bit distressing. To feel that powerfully for a complete stranger?
Gay for you: I've heard firsthand accounts of this, so I buy it. I'll admit the idea of a straight-for-you story gets my hackles up. Smacks too much of conservative political agenda. Of course I don't feel the same about real life straight-for-you experiences. Love is love. :)
I do love Reunited stories. Usually the characters broke up for some unfortunate reason and are really meant for each other, and I really dig experiencing their struggle to come to terms with the past and the fact that they *are* meant for each other. In real life? It seems like most relationships end for a totally valid reason.
I love reunited stories too because of it is true that at a different time and a different place...so many things can change. And that's what a reunited story offers. That do-over scenario.
DeleteLove at first sight: Only when done in books.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's because I've been binge-watching Mobile Suit Gundam series (sci-fi military anime) where soldiers from opposing sides spend all of five minutes with each other and will suddenly betray their nations and are willing to die for each other that I find love at first sight to overdone. BUT that could be because it's a heterosexual relationship and it's always that the female is so dang ~pretty~. As a female in our current society, I don't want to put emphasis on love at first SIGHT.
That said, when it's in books, and I can imagine the people however I want, and interpret that the main character's standards of beauty may be widely varied, so it's less annoying and sometimes downright enjoyable.
2. Gay/Straight for you
I just have to point out one of my favorite artists, Erika Moen, who identified as a lesbian for years and then fell in love with a British man. She describes it beautifully in her diary webcomic. She also draws review-comics for sex toys, which is amazing. ( http://www.erikamoen.com/ )
That's interesting. And I can see why love at first sight based on prettiness is hackle-raising. But others mentioned that "connection" you can feel for someone you've just met, and that's powerful stuff. Even if it is fleeting or just based on circumstances.
DeleteThat's a good point about Erika. That is something I know to be true. Love is not just about the physical shell. It is about the mind and spirit of a person.
Which is why people can form attachments to those they have never actually met in person.
Hello Mr. Lanyon. For some reason I feel compelled to jump out of lurkdom and put my two cents in. Okay, make it a quarter!
ReplyDelete1. I believe in lust and infatuation at first sight. Love takes getting to know someone a little bit better.
2. GFY? Labels *sigh* I don't see why not, at least in fiction. If you don't have a problem with shifters and such, don't get your panties or manties as the case may be, in a bunch over well written GFY ( I refer to it as goofy).
3. Everything but death :)
4. Opposites attract? Hubby and I are polar opposites and we just celebrated our fortieth wedding anniversary, so yeah. I'm very shy so I need someone who can get me out of my shell a little. Hubby needs grounding with his gregarious self.
5. I don't no nuthin' about reuniting so no input there.
I will now go back to the lurkdom until once again compelled by though provoking questions.
Deedles
Hi Deedles!
DeleteI agree that it is funny readers who can accept were-octopuses can draw the line at GFY or LaFS. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN! :-D
I'm glad you commented.
LAFS - I have a hard time with this one. I've experienced interest and lust at first sight, but not love. But then I remember my grandfather telling his friends he was going to marry that girl he'd just seen in his boss's office. It took a while, but they were going strong at 44 years when he died. Maybe I just haven't been that lucky.
ReplyDeleteGFY/SFY - I remember being blown away by an Adovcate/Out/Instinct article from around 2000 that interviewed 4 men who were all in GFY relationships (of course they weren't called that then). I wish I could find that article again.
LCA - With hard work, determination, and a willingness to push one's ego aside, I believe this is true. But how many people in our disposable society are willing to put in the effort?
OA - Amen and hellelujah. But then it takes work to stick together. I don't necessarily believe Like Repels Like either, but I think we need some differences to keep creating sparks of interest.
Reunited - My parents' first marriage lasted 7 years. Then they divorced for 5. Their second was counting down to 30 when he died last year. They had plenty of chances to give up that second time around, but they dug deep and worked it out, proving that reunited can feel so good when you help love conquer all. I only wish they'd had more time together.
Yes! Just because I haven't personally experienced something doesn't mean it can't happen. There are more things in your heaven and earth, etc.
DeleteI find these stories of people breaking up and getting back together again very touching.
And one thing about the idea of reuniting...it probably has to do with timing because even if you are older, more mature, could make the relationship work now, the chances that you would both free and available are slim.
Perhaps we enjoy these tropes so much because we wish we got to experience them in real life.
ReplyDelete1 - Love at First Sight - like the others, I totally believe in lust at first sight.
2 - Gay for You - if you're young and haven't really pondered who you are or who you want, why not call it GFY?
3 - Love Conquers All - Love just provides the motivation; the person must figure out how to conquer.
4 - Opposites Attract - probably. And then they kill each other.
5 - Reunited and it Feels So Good - I suppose if both parties get a clue while they're apart, it could turn out well. But I don't believe people are "destined" for each other.
Sure. And why not? Tropes become tropes for a reason. And while some people tire of various tropes, it's a safe bet that they continue to be hugely popular with most readers.
Deleteopposites may attract but the diffs make it hard to go the long term. Then again, even like minds face a lot of work going long. Are there really HEA's or just SEA's (Satisfied Ever After)?
ReplyDeleteYes. True. And of course it's going to have to do with the areas of difference. Some areas are not a big deal. But some will ultimately be insurmountable, love or not.
DeleteLove at First Sight -- I've known two people who did the whole one look and said: I'm going to marry that person. And they did, and they're still together and happy. I'm not sure mine was exactly LAFS, more the weird kind of deja-vu thing Christine D. mentioned above. But a definite conection from first meeting and we've now been happily married a long time.
ReplyDeleteGay for You -- not sure about this one. Though depending on the story it can work for me. Happy with Out for You though.
Love Conquers All - hmm,not a favourite, depends on the story.
Opposites Atrract -- definitely.
Reunited and it Feels So Good -- yes! So many instances in real life, and for some reason I just like this trope. Have to say I like it less when one of the characters was violent or bullying (as in high school) and then all is forgiven.
Fun discussion.
Yes. As far as the reunited trope, it certainly depends on what broke the couple up. Now mistakes made in high school or college...I think it is reasonable that young people make serious and even tragic mistakes and then grow up to be very decent and good adults.
DeleteBut an adults who are violent or cruel? That's pretty messy. That's often going to be a person who doesn't actually want to change. Or will not be capable of change.
LAFS: yes, with qualifications. Previous marriage was a cluster, so I got my act together and worked on me for years.
ReplyDeleteTired of kissing *shudder* young and/or "are you freaking kidding me?" frogs, I put together a "potential life partner must-have, deal-breaker attribute wish list." Once I figured it out, I met my prince a week later in a cozy neighborhood bar. My girlfriend and I were trying to dodge a slimy golf pro wannabe politician and I blew Dodge while the idiot was getting signage! I lived on the fourth floor of an apt. in another district. Took two months to reconnect and after a month we married. We were together 20+ years.
well, crud! forgot to sign.
DeleteThanks for the thoughtful blog. Josh
--Judy
That's a great story, Judy. :-)
DeleteI do believe in love at first sight because it's happened to me. However I would say that if you're the kind of person who has love at first sight, it happens continually throughout your life and in a variety of contexts. LAFS (great. acronym.) doesn't happen to people who do not maintain the capacity to fall in love instantly with everything-- friends, cars, clothes, pets, mentors, TV shows, concepts, the notion of getting a vitreous tile backsplash--and so on.
ReplyDeleteIf a person has that capacity within, then LAFS with their True Love will inevitably follow, because it happens all day every day and eventually the True Love can't help but wander into the picture to be instantly loved.
What will also happen is FOO-LAFS "Falling out of love at first sight" with 98% of all LAFS targets.
The 2% of LAFS targets that do remain loved after the FOO-LAFS stage are generally loved insanely and forever.
Like me and tiger-striped velvet.
I will never stop liking it.
No one can ever stop me.
LOL Brilliant as ever. :-D
DeleteAnd so true.
LAFS - never experienced it but I'm glad you have. I have experienced overwhelming attraction.
ReplyDeleteGFY - I agree that people are extraordinarily complex and that there is a continuum between straight and gay that includes differing degrees of openness to one view or the other. I do think it is possible that a deep emotional connection between friends has the potential to turn into romantic love if both parties are open to it.
LCA - like you said, only with hard work and commitment. People who say you shouldn't have to work at love will never enjoy the deep and lasting connection that is the result of all that work.
Opposites - it is true, just sometimes completely unworkable
Reunited - I believe this can work. There is, in fact, an example occurring in my family right now. My nephew and a girlfriend from 8 years ago have just got back together. It wasn't that they didn't love one another, they just both had a lot of growing up to do. That has happened, and now they're ready to go forward together. I guess a lot depends on the reason for the original breakup.
Love this, Josh - made me think. Have a wonderful weekend.
"People who say you shouldn't have to work at love will never enjoy the deep and lasting connection that is the result of all that work."
DeleteHey, maybe they're right. But you sure as hell have to work at relationships. So in the end, it's kind of the same thing.
You have a wonderful weekend too, Denise.
Congrats on post number zillion and one, Josh!! You're little fingers must be tired! :)
ReplyDeleteLove at first site, probably not really love. Attraction certainly, but I think real love takes a little time to develop.
Gay for you I'll buy because it's the person we fall in love with, not the genitalia, right? RIGHT? lol
Love conquers all? Hmmm...not sure. I like to think it could.
Opposites attract? Definitely. But those same differences might also blow you apart in the end. lol
Reunited and it feels so good. I have to say probably not. If you actually pulled the trigger on separating from each other and envisioned a life apart, odds are you're toast. Not that it can't ever happen, but generally the things that drove you apart will rear their ugly heads again once you're back together. *I TOLD YOU TO PUT THE CAP ON THE TOOTHPASTE! I HATE YOU SO MUCH!!!" :P
Anyway, those are my thoughts. I actually tried to answer yesterday but my router decided Josh's website was porn and wouldn't let me. lol. I had to tinker with the settings and now it's all good. Naughty, naughty, Josh.
P-p-porn?! :-D
DeleteIt's a sad thing that sometimes the toothpaste cap can be a deal breaker. Or the dirty socks on the stove.
DeleteWhat? Your ex didn't leave his dirty socks on the stove?! ;-D
I WISH he left his socks!! :P
DeleteLove at first sight - yes, I know it happens. A dear friend took one look at his One and Only and that was it for them both. They were so deeply in love they couldn't walk past one another without a touch and a smile, and they'd been married nearly thirty years then. When she died suddenly and with no warning, it nearly killed him, he was a shadow until his own death some years later - but he loved her the whole time.
ReplyDeleteGFY - I think one thing critics of this (in books) don't seem to notice is that the character involved has often either not acknowledged or not recognised gay/bi feelings, and that's made clear if you read it right. In real life, people are complex in their sexuality and I don't think it's a radical conversion, more an expression of something already there which is brought out into the open by their attraction to one special person. It's too simplistic to label people on the basis of who they already sleep with, when most humans have a far wider spectrum of desires, whether they act on them or not.
The rest - yes, I believe these exist. Love can overcome one hell of a lot of troubles and problems, and if it doesn't, there's a possibility it wasn't really love, at least on both sides. And people meeting again after some time and falling in love makes a lot of sense when you consider how we can change through life and how our experiences mould us.
I do think that's true about the GFY/SFY scenario, and also books are frequently mislabeled, so yes.
DeleteAnd given that we spend so much of our early years figuring out who and what we will be...
1 - Love at First Sight
ReplyDeleteHmm. I believe in attraction at first sight, but I think love is something that can't happen that quickly and still be real. Real love requires us to know the other person; anything else is just infatuation. I think when most people think of love at first sight, what they're really thinking of is an attraction that serendipitously happened to be between people who eventually fell in love.
I do believe it's possible to really fall in love with someone in a relatively short period of time, though — weeks, or even days. The first time I fell in love happened in a series of telephone calls that took place over three or four days, talking for hours at a time each day. Even now, 30+ years later, I feel a little ache in my chest when I think of him.
2 - Gay for You (or the alternative version: Straight for You)
It's really just about our human tendency to categorize and label and box things up for our own comfort, IMO. In general, I believe that human sexuality is a lot more fluid than society likes to admit. I mean, if things were as binary as they're made out to be (and don't get me started on bi erasure in media), there would be no such thing as situational homosexuality...or, for that matter, the whole historical precedent of closeted gay men who married and fathered children.
The only real difference between someone like Oscar Wilde, who married out of obligation rather than inclination, and the protagonist in a GFY story is motivation; I absolutely believe that it's possible to fall in love with someone for who they are rather than whether their plumbing is external or internal, and from there it's just a matter of how one chooses to approach the issue of intimacy.
3 - Love Conquers All
Yes and no. Yes, it can conquer most internal conflict in a relationship between reasonably healthy adults, if the parties are willing to work at it. It can't, however, conquer external conflict. No amount of being in love and no degree of commitment will stop a hate crime or prevent persecution.
5 - Reunited and it Feels So Good
This is the story of my parents' marriage. :-) They were friends who dated for a while in high school, and when my mother found herself pregnant during her first year of college, my now-step-father offered to marry her, but she refused him and married my biofather. Four years later, separated and with a toddler, she reconnected with my step-father and they were married the day after her divorce from my biofather was finalized. They've been happily married for 41 years.
Thank you for those thoughtful, insightful answers!
Delete1. Love at first sight. I truly believe in this as it happened to me. I swear when Hubby and I first locked eyes, the wind stopped blowing, the birds fell silent and we were the only two people on the planet. I proposed a week later, married 3 months after that, and we've been together for 36 years.
ReplyDelete2. Gay for you. I think this is possible in some cases. Gay men who fall in love with transmen, or straight fellas that fall in love with trans ladies who haven't had the lower surgery. I suppose the argument could be that the gay fella wasn't a full Kinsey 6, nor the straight fella a full Kinsey 1. But I just don't buy that. I think it is possible to fall in love completely out of our zone of usual suspects, and make it work.
3. Love conquers all. Absolutely, if the love is strong enough any hurdle can be surmounted and dealt with. And to this I speak from experience. After 30 years of marriage I finally told my hubby I was a gay trans guy. It was tough, but we managed to work thru all the issues and are strong as a couple as before.
4. Opposites attract. Yup. totally. I think couples who are vastly different are stronger than those that are clones of each other. Gives room to breathe and offers avenues into worlds we didn't know before knowing them. And it helps keep things fresh, and is always fodder for interesting conversations.
5.Reunited and it feels so good. For some couples it works out better the second time around, but for some, the second time is just as much as a disaster as the first time.
Thanks for commenting!
DeleteAnd as far as #2, yes. In fact one of my writing idols, Joseph Hansen "happened to fall in love with a woman." And they stayed married for a lifetime--and had a child--though Hansen most certainly identified as gay.
#1: Love at First Sight -
DeleteNope, I don't really believe in it. Instead I would call it a "deep mutual fascination". Love, to me, encompasses so much more than a first sight can offer.
#2: Gay/Straight for You -
Probably in my youth I might have scoffed at this idea. However, being in my sixties, I now believe that when two people, of whatever sex, connect emotionally (as opposed to just sexually) than gay/straight for you is a definite possibility.
#3: Love Conquers All -
Nope. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I believe that's called life.
#4 - Opposites Attract -
From what I've seen over time, opposites, in a loving situation, tend to just become completely complementary.
#5 - Reunited and it Feels So Good -
A number of years ago, I was browsing through a high school reunion pictorial and saw that two people I knew, who had dated in high school. married others, were now husband and wife. WOW - how romantic! not! They are now divorced. Sometimes you can relive your love life, sometimes you can't. Again, I think that's called "life".